March 16 1976 Mayapura conversation

Prabhupāda: You have got the same eyes, but when it is dark you cannot see. Then what is the value of your eyes? You see under condition. That is not absolute. [break] …should be informed that why you have changed? Now, the Russian and Chinese, first of all they began believing Lenin or Marx.

Madhudviṣa: Marx was the original.

Prabhupāda: Now they are not in agreement. Why?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They saw practically… It was impractical.

Prabhupāda: That means for advancement of knowledge you have to change. They accept this theory, revolution. So if you get better situation, why you’ll not change?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept a better theory when it is presented.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning, that “Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge.” Paśyati j�āna… Paśyanti j�āna-cakṣuṣā. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing, a motor car is running, a airplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made; it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men.

Mahendra: In these Communist countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, such as Russia…

Prabhupāda: Not Communist country, everywhere, a pilot is required. Not Communist country.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Every country has a leader.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these… All this ism, Communism, this ism, this ism, beginning from that Greek history, so many changes have been made in Europe, leaders, sometimes Napoleon, sometimes Mussolini, sometimes Hitler. It is going on. So where is the perfect situation? You have changed so many leaders for so many years in the history, but where is your perfect situation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have one leader, and our situation is perfect, and we are not changing that leader.

Note–TKG sure changed his tune later on)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfection. We have taken Kṛṣṇa as leader. We are not taking any other leader.

Mahāṁśa: In thousands of years.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hundreds and thousands of years.

Prabhupāda: Millions of years.

Mahāṁśa: So many constitutions, they have been amended so many times. But the Bhagavad-gītā has not been amended since so many millions of years.

Prabhupāda: It cannot be amended. Just like this rule, dehino ‘smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. When the change of body, how you can change the rule? A perfect definition. You cannot change it. [break] …religion, the so-called religion, it is changed. Formerly there was no Christianity and now Christianity. Now, from Christianity, so many others, so many others. That is not religion.

Revatīnandana: If you say that your leader is perfect and you do not change your leader, we see that in India… This is where Kṛṣṇa came. He is your leader, but they do not follow Kṛṣṇa any more and India is in trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right thing.

Revatīnandana: But why do they not follow if He is perfect leader?

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune.

Revatīnandana: They argue like that.

Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Just like father says, “Child do this,” but he does not do. Father says, “Don’t touch fire;” he touches, so he’ll suffer.

Madhudviṣa: They can also say that about their leader. They can say that according to Marx, if everyone followed Marx purely, then the Communist system would be running on…

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the purity?

Madhudviṣa: Well, the pure Communist philosophy.

Prabhupāda: What is that pure Communist philosophy? State. We state, “This is our philosophy.” What is the Marx philosophy?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ultimately, they say there should be no leader. Everything will work automatically.

Prabhupāda: But you have leader, rascal. Why do you say no leader? Immediately take shoes and beat with them.

Mahendra: They say that in the future there will be no leaders.

Prabhupāda: Again beat threes, thrice. But we are not so fool that we are going to believe in your future postdated check. We are not so fool. Present right check.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We don’t accept blindly.

Prabhupāda: Immediately payable. Then we accept.

Madhudviṣa: They will accept that there has to be a leader…

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must have. They must have.

Madhudviṣa: But the leader should not be a person which is held in esteem for his personality but simply a person who is guiding the system.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then that is Kṛṣṇa. He is giving this leader. This is a fact.

Trivikrama: And their leader can never be perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Trivikrama: The Communist leader.

Prabhupāda: You can become perfect if you follow a perfect leader. That’s all.

Lokanātha: Just like some gurus say there is no need of guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble is, their system is not perfect. Our system is…

Prabhupāda: How it can be? Because the leader who introduced this system is a rascal, so how the system can be perfect?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like you pointed out yesterday that Communism holds that everyone should have an equal right, but, you pointed out, then why do they limit that simply to human beings?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is imperfect system.

Prabhupāda: Why they become sectarian?

Madhudviṣa: They will say this is the natural development. When a system develops to this size there will be…

Prabhupāda: That you cannot change, natural development. You rascal, why you become leader? I don’t require your leadership if everything is going on by nature.

Madhudviṣa: No, it requires a guide.

Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, you are under nature. So how you can guide me? Your position is the same. You are blind; I am blind. How you can lead me?

Madhudviṣa: They won’t say that.

Prabhupāda: So they won’t say means…

Madhudviṣa: They say that…

Prabhupāda: Why shall I accept a blind leader? If a blind… I am blind, and if a blind man says, “Come on, I shall guide you,” why shall I accept that leader?

Madhudviṣa: Their contention is not that, though. Their contention is that Mao Tse Tung, along with being the political leader, is also the spiritual guide of the people.

Prabhupāda: Political, social is not. The leader must be perfect. If the leader is blind, how can I accept such blind leader? I am blind man. What is the use? I am blind; therefore I am asking, “Can you help me to cross the road?” Another blind, “Yes, yes, come on, I shall.” Why shall I accept? First of all I shall ask, “You have got eyes?” “No, I am also blind.” What is this nonsense?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they admit their leader to be blind?

Devotee: No. They use their leader’s book as Bible.

Prabhupāda: Then why you change? Why you change?

Devotee: They don’t change. They follow Mao.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They… They say there is necessity of revolution. The Communist theory they accept, that periodically there is need of revolution.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: But it all culminates.

Madhudviṣa: That’s not to change. That’s not to change.

Prabhupāda: You have change, change of the system.

Madhudviṣa: No, that’s not to change the system. That’s to purify it.

Prabhupāda: That change of the leader…

Madhudviṣa: That’s to purge the system.

Revatīnandana: Continuous purification.

Prabhupāda: That’s means… Purge out means it is not perfect.

Madhudviṣa: No, they will say that in any system…

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Madhudviṣa: …over the years they are dealing with millions of people.

Prabhupāda: No, but if I can give you any system which is perfect, why you’ll not accept it? Why you are so fool?

Madhudviṣa: Then, if you can give a system that people will not deviate?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Any system people can deviate from…

Prabhupāda: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything.

Madhudviṣa: So that is the imperfection.

Prabhupāda: That is your imperfection.

Madhudviṣa: So they will say that is the imperfection in Communism, also, that the system is perfect but we have imperfect people.

Prabhupāda: But if there is an ism where there is no such defects, why should you not accept it?

Madhudviṣa: But there is defects, though.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can point out even within our own movement the different people who don’t follow.

Trivikrama: Don’t follow but the system is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they’ll say their system is also perfect, but there’s some that don’t follow.

Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you have to establish.

Bhāgavata: So it didn’t save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn’t save him.

Madhudviṣa: What does it mean the saving? He died like everyone else.

Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There’s so much… They’re servants of their senses.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone requires leader, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That is a fact.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they are changing leaders one after another because they think that the present leader will satisfy their present desires more.

Prabhupāda: The leader, perfect leader, is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānāṁ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That nitya and cetana, all living entities, we are eternal, and we are conscious. And He is the supreme conscious. Therefore God means Supreme Being. You take His leadership. Then He’ll properly guide you. That is our philosophy.

Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, actually, I think it was either Marx or…

Prabhupāda: But the leader says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo: [Bg. 18.66] “I shall give you protection from all pitfalls.” This is. We also accept leader, but the most perfect leader, who can actually give me protection from all dangers. So Śrīdhara, when you go, you take some letters from me. So what happened about Ganguli? [break] …this nature. Just like a child is born. Immediately requires protection by mother.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What… Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are the qualifications of a perfect leader?

Prabhupāda: No mistake, no illusion, no cheating, no imperfection. Anyone who commits mistake, he’s illusioned, he’s a cheater and imperfect—he cannot lead. So bring any leader of these rascal groups and test with these four principles; he is misleader.

Trivikrama: They’re all servants of their senses.

Madhudviṣa: They will also say that within our movement the so-called leaders also have imperfections.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: They will say, within our movement, that the leaders also have imperfection.

Prabhupāda: No imperfection.

Trivikrama: No imperfection.

Madhudviṣa: They will say, “Yes, we can give you examples.”

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Why? Why you shall accept? They will say. Because therefore they are saying, we shall accept?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here’s Prabhupāda. Here’s Prabhupāda

Trivikrama: The so-called leaders, maybe they are imperfect, but the real leader, He is perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is test of.

Madhudviṣa: They will say, “He is also makes mistakes.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is that mistake?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have not seen any mistakes.

Gurudāsa: Where is the mistake?

Prabhupāda: There is no mistake.

Gurudāsa: Jaya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you define…

Prabhupāda: If you think your leader (namely SP) is mistaken, then you are mistaken. (laughter)

Mahendra: Like a mirror. You see a mistake but it’s yourself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The leader of mistake-therefore immediately gives evidence from śāstra. What is the use of quoting from the śāstra? “Just to prove that I am not mistaken, here is the proof.”

Madhudviṣa: They would say that there is a way of life which is perfect, but all men are imperfect. There is a way of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they… Because you are imperfect, therefore you have to accept the leadership of a perfect person.

Madhudviṣa: They will say no one is perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the… That is your ignorance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have never seen…

Prabhupāda: Now, just like blind man says, “Nobody is with eyes. Because I am blind, so everyone is blind.” Ātmavat manyate jagat. That is the way.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the whole thing is actually nonsense because Marx himself in his old age became senile and died in a crazy condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. He was crazy always. Many, many leaders die like that.

Trivikrama: Every leader.

Madhudviṣa: They will point out that our ācāryas also died. You say that Marx died, so they will say, “Your ācāryas also died.”

Prabhupāda: Dying, that… There is difference of dying. But nobody, he died… They did not die a crazy. That is the superexcellence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he died gloriously.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that, that he prepared himself, “Now I am going to die. Now I am sleeping. You just pierce with your arrow.” So where is that death? Even that death is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it’s glorified from time immemorial.

Trivikrama: Like Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is not death, but if you take it as death, that is also glorified.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It’s wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at Lord Caitanya’s disappearance. Wonderful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A leader means that he’s following a system. So what are the criterion of…?

Prabhupāda: That already told. He does not commit any mistake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that I understand.

Prabhupāda: He is not illusioned, he is not a cheater, and he is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now you’ve defined a perfect leader. What is a perfect system? What are the criterion for a perfect system?

Prabhupāda: Perfect system means from which we do not suffer. That’s all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No suffering.

Prabhupāda: No suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the main criterion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always hankering after happiness. So we do not like suffering. So if there is no suffering, that is perfect system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you point out any time in history when there existed such a perfect system?

Prabhupāda: It is always existing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even now?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise why you are sticking to this? This is the proof. You are all young men, you have given up everything. Why you are sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

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Some Conclusions–In this very interesting conversation Srila Prabhupada explains the need for the perfect person to explain the perfect “system” which will deliver us to the perfect enjoyment.

Today many devotees, because they have been brainwashed into thinking-their “guru” does not have to be perfect- so they do not get one. When one does not “see” any of these “perfect ” devotees around them that Prabhupada describes in his books, then they naturally settle for the quite less than perfect so called guru who really cannot help us advance to the spiritual platform. This person may know all the rituals, head nods, and class mantras when preaching but if his realization is only kanistha or at best Madhyama adhikari, or worse still he directly disobeys Srila Prabhupada himself, then this person cannot help us like the absolutely necessary Uttama Adhikari maha Bhagavata pure devotee of the Lord.

Spiritual life means we see thru the ears not the eyes In that way the Supersoul will direct and guide us.

But fortunate for us all, such a great soul as Srila Prabhupada left behind him volumes of transcendental knowledge just like Lord Krsna did after His departure. One only has to take advantage of this massive amount of vani.

Hare Krsna

damaghosa das

(Any comments accepted and responded to in these articles that I write)

ps….Some may ask of me-why so much information on guru tattva? Here is the answer by Srila Bhaktivinoda thakur-unless and until all these apa sapradayas are rooted out, the proper siddhanta cannot be established nor will the yuga dharma flourish.

Two predictions of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Thakur Bhaktivinode

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati,SREE SAJJANA-TOSHANI OR THE HARMONIST

VOL. XXV. [ SEPTEMBER, 1927, 441 Chaitanya-Era. ] NO.4 .

”Within the Gaudiya Sampradaya an abundant crop of evils have sprung up during the last four hundred years. The first and foremost duty of an Acharyya is to uproot those evils completely. He alone is an Acharya who teaches the Dharma that he himself practices.”

Thakur’s two predictions :—

(1) Some person imbued with the power of God will again establish the true Varnasram Dharma in accordance with the Divine Dispensation.

(2) Within a short time there will exist only one Sampradaya (School) in the realm of devotion ‘bhakti’. Its name will be “Sri Brahma Sampradaya.” All other Sampradayas will merge in this Brahma Sampradaya.